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serafaeryomg, I'm only 26 minutes into my listen on Audible, but Sapolsky's "Determined" is exactly what I was hoping for and also more. This is my jam. This is exactly what I was studying in grad school, in philosophy of mind, but in a format that is conversational and applicable and fun. I love it so much. He's great. I read Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers many years ago and he has some other books I want to check out, also.
He introduces the book by saying he's been a determinist for a long time and believes free will doesn't exist, and as such that people should not be held morally responsible for their actions (sure, keep harmful people from doing more harm, this isn't an argument that all behavior is acceptable, just that it should not be judged in a moral way), but that in reality, even though he believes this, he does not actually live his life in a way that reflects it, most of the time.
THIS IS ME.
I love it, I've never heard anyone but high level esoteric philosophers talk this way (or maybe some people in the psychedelic community, using much different language to get to the same general concept) and it feels like home.
I'm so happy this exists.
He breaks down different styles of thought about free will into categories and I'm so stoked to see where he goes with his analyzation of the more interesting ones. He's definitely going to dissect Dennett, and I can't wait to see what he has to say. My guess is that he will fall in line with Dan's concepts in "Freedom Evolves" but with some more developed nuance about accepting the fact that we live in a world that behaves as if free will is a thing. Dan says to treat it like an evolutionary development and that thinking about it this way is convenient, the same way treating ourselves as a coherent "self" is more convenient than constantly correcting away from that simplification to the idea that we are a bundle of nerve fibers and chemical and electrical processes and that what we think of as "self" is constantly shifting. If we tried to do that all the time, our ability to function in society would be strained. But I don't remember Dan saying a whole lot in Freedom Evolves about moral judgement. He might have just said, "yeah it's not appropriate" without addressing the fact that everyone still does it anyway. I do remember discussing it a lot though, and that's what I love about Sapolsky so far - it's like he took the human conversational aspect of the ideas that bubble up in a classroom and published that, instead of a refined textbook lecture style presentation.
He started with an anecdote about the "it's turtles all the way down" theory of the world that just tickles me. I think about this all the time. Also the, "nothing comes from nothing/nothing ever could" quote from Sound of Music. ::happy sigh::
One thing I love about this is how it falls in line with something I love about Rangan Chaterjee's podcast, Feel Better, Live More, is that he has stated a number of times that when he adopted the view that he is no better or worse than anyone else, and that whenever anyone behaves in a certain way, he recognizes that given the same set of conditions (their upbringing, their environment, their body, their culturalization, etc.) he would do exactly the same thing, has changed his life dramatically in terms of reserving judgement. He says it's a struggle sometimes and he has to constantly correct himself to bring him back in line with this, but that it's really important to him to keep doing so.
I do this, too, and it's a constant struggle, and it feels really lonely because most people are so quick to judge others, without knowing anything about how someone got to the place that they are. (This hit me really, really hard on my drive home from the club, last night. I saw an employee of an establishment admonishing a vagrant who had settled in to sleep in their doorway, sheltering from the unseasonable wind that had kicked up, and just could not help thinking, nobody wants to shelter in your doorway. It's not like he looked around as a kid and thought, "you know what would be great, to grow up to be nonfunctional and unable to sustain myself and sleeping in doorways where people don't want me, I'm going to do THAT." I realize it's impacting the business in a really negative way to have him there; no one will want to come in. But also, just be kind?)
Really, it's exactly the same thing Sapolsky is saying, but in a different way.
It's almost like the wellness community, the psychedelic community, and the analytic philosophical/science community, are all approaching this very human concept from different angles, to get to the same place, but all with very different feelings around them. Different vibes. I'm guessing there are religions or other spiritual communities that are moving toward this too, or maybe there are some eastern ones that are already there, or perhaps have always been there. So opposite from Christianity, hmm?
Oh my heart.
so happy.
I have the day off and it's glorious weather. I'm headed to the gym soon for some cardio and to finish my PT, then I will lounge at my favorite cafe for a bit, then work on Wednesday dancing. YAY. I am the luckiest faery in the world.
Tomorrow I will go to the farmers market, do another workout (maybe silks), and clean the apartment. I don't like being out and about too much on Saturdays.
Sunday I'll see if I can hook up with friends, or just keep dancing, if I'm able to get some momentum, there. Finish cleaning if I didn't get it all done. There is plenty to do. My office needs some love. So does my studio, to be honest. Cobwebs. Things need to be reorganized.
Still got the munchies, but I should go work out before i eat anymore. I'm eating plenty, not starving myself at all, I'm not thin but I'm not in a place where I want to work on hardcore calorie restriction, right now. Not while injured. As long as I don't overindulge too much, it's all fine.
He introduces the book by saying he's been a determinist for a long time and believes free will doesn't exist, and as such that people should not be held morally responsible for their actions (sure, keep harmful people from doing more harm, this isn't an argument that all behavior is acceptable, just that it should not be judged in a moral way), but that in reality, even though he believes this, he does not actually live his life in a way that reflects it, most of the time.
THIS IS ME.
I love it, I've never heard anyone but high level esoteric philosophers talk this way (or maybe some people in the psychedelic community, using much different language to get to the same general concept) and it feels like home.
I'm so happy this exists.
He breaks down different styles of thought about free will into categories and I'm so stoked to see where he goes with his analyzation of the more interesting ones. He's definitely going to dissect Dennett, and I can't wait to see what he has to say. My guess is that he will fall in line with Dan's concepts in "Freedom Evolves" but with some more developed nuance about accepting the fact that we live in a world that behaves as if free will is a thing. Dan says to treat it like an evolutionary development and that thinking about it this way is convenient, the same way treating ourselves as a coherent "self" is more convenient than constantly correcting away from that simplification to the idea that we are a bundle of nerve fibers and chemical and electrical processes and that what we think of as "self" is constantly shifting. If we tried to do that all the time, our ability to function in society would be strained. But I don't remember Dan saying a whole lot in Freedom Evolves about moral judgement. He might have just said, "yeah it's not appropriate" without addressing the fact that everyone still does it anyway. I do remember discussing it a lot though, and that's what I love about Sapolsky so far - it's like he took the human conversational aspect of the ideas that bubble up in a classroom and published that, instead of a refined textbook lecture style presentation.
He started with an anecdote about the "it's turtles all the way down" theory of the world that just tickles me. I think about this all the time. Also the, "nothing comes from nothing/nothing ever could" quote from Sound of Music. ::happy sigh::
One thing I love about this is how it falls in line with something I love about Rangan Chaterjee's podcast, Feel Better, Live More, is that he has stated a number of times that when he adopted the view that he is no better or worse than anyone else, and that whenever anyone behaves in a certain way, he recognizes that given the same set of conditions (their upbringing, their environment, their body, their culturalization, etc.) he would do exactly the same thing, has changed his life dramatically in terms of reserving judgement. He says it's a struggle sometimes and he has to constantly correct himself to bring him back in line with this, but that it's really important to him to keep doing so.
I do this, too, and it's a constant struggle, and it feels really lonely because most people are so quick to judge others, without knowing anything about how someone got to the place that they are. (This hit me really, really hard on my drive home from the club, last night. I saw an employee of an establishment admonishing a vagrant who had settled in to sleep in their doorway, sheltering from the unseasonable wind that had kicked up, and just could not help thinking, nobody wants to shelter in your doorway. It's not like he looked around as a kid and thought, "you know what would be great, to grow up to be nonfunctional and unable to sustain myself and sleeping in doorways where people don't want me, I'm going to do THAT." I realize it's impacting the business in a really negative way to have him there; no one will want to come in. But also, just be kind?)
Really, it's exactly the same thing Sapolsky is saying, but in a different way.
It's almost like the wellness community, the psychedelic community, and the analytic philosophical/science community, are all approaching this very human concept from different angles, to get to the same place, but all with very different feelings around them. Different vibes. I'm guessing there are religions or other spiritual communities that are moving toward this too, or maybe there are some eastern ones that are already there, or perhaps have always been there. So opposite from Christianity, hmm?
Oh my heart.
so happy.
I have the day off and it's glorious weather. I'm headed to the gym soon for some cardio and to finish my PT, then I will lounge at my favorite cafe for a bit, then work on Wednesday dancing. YAY. I am the luckiest faery in the world.
Tomorrow I will go to the farmers market, do another workout (maybe silks), and clean the apartment. I don't like being out and about too much on Saturdays.
Sunday I'll see if I can hook up with friends, or just keep dancing, if I'm able to get some momentum, there. Finish cleaning if I didn't get it all done. There is plenty to do. My office needs some love. So does my studio, to be honest. Cobwebs. Things need to be reorganized.
Still got the munchies, but I should go work out before i eat anymore. I'm eating plenty, not starving myself at all, I'm not thin but I'm not in a place where I want to work on hardcore calorie restriction, right now. Not while injured. As long as I don't overindulge too much, it's all fine.
no subject
Date: 2024-07-28 04:26 pm (UTC)My partner, Will, geeks out on cog sci and philosophy of mind and determinism, too. I like it a lot, too. I’m a philosophy major, and he almost has a philosophy degree, too, if he ever goes back to finish it (he got his doctorate in Experimental Psychology recently). I love to read and think about this stuff, too, and get to talk with him about it a lot. So I’ll probably chime in on posts like this one.
no subject
Date: 2024-07-28 10:58 pm (UTC)I think it's interesting that Sapolsky himself admits that although he considers himself a full determinist, he doesn't actually manage to live his life as such. In a way, is that admitting that you really aren't a determinist, but just kinda wish you could be? lol. Anyway, I really really really love his breakdown of criminality in a youtube talk he gave here: https://youtu.be/rv38taDUpwQ?si=MvFoX4YgD-a79TIk&t=2304 If you have any interest figuring out where we go from here if free will actually does not exist.
One thing I love at the end of the above youtube talk also is that he points out that if we are privileged enough to be listening to a talk about free will and determinism and have enough leisure in our lives to sit around thinking about these concepts, then we are by default the lucky ones and it feels like a huge letdown to consider the fact that we don't actually deserve any of the privilege we've had our whole lives. but that for "average" or "below average" people, this would be a massive relief. That's a bit of a wake-up call. for me, this is especially viscerally important because so many of my worst experiences with people have come from concepts of magical thinking, that if something good happens to you and something bad happens to someone else, they deserve it and so do you. Yanno, like a bullet missing you and killing someone else and claiming that god must have intervened on your behalf - soooo, god hates that other guy, and his family and loved ones deserved that, then? It's super gross to me, at best. And inherently dangerous at worst.
I am digging through the thickest part of Sapolsky's "Determined" book right now where he's explaining why chaoticism and other forms of mathematical/scientific unpredictability such as quantum theory don't make room for free will, but I'm most excited for the "where do we go from here" 2nd half of the book. Since I've studied with Dan, I already grock the concept that if we make a space for randomness, a random flitting atom moving one way or another doesn't give us any more free will than a determined motion of that atom would. If it's determined, we didn't choose it - if it's random, we still didn't choose it.
no subject
Date: 2024-09-16 11:26 pm (UTC)Sorry for the late response. We’re in the middle of a move to another state. I hope things settle down soon to where I can have nice philosophical discussions. :)